Would someone die for what they knew was a lie?: Difference between revisions

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{{quote|People do not willingly allow themselves to die for something they know is a lie so the Apostles really believed they saw, talked with, touched, walked with and even ate with Jesus in various group settings after He died on the cross which convinced them He was God so they became bold proclaimers when before they were doubters. <ref>[http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3476-4-Step-Proof-for-God-amp-Minimal-Facts-Approach]</ref>}}
{{quote|People do not willingly allow themselves to die for something they know is a lie so the Apostles really believed they saw, talked with, touched, walked with and even ate with Jesus in various group settings after He died on the cross which convinced them He was God so they became bold proclaimers when before they were doubters. <ref>[http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?3476-4-Step-Proof-for-God-amp-Minimal-Facts-Approach]</ref>}}


=Counter-apologetics=
==Counter-apologetics==
* The [[premise]] that people would never "die for a lie" is demonstrably false. People throughout history have, in fact, died for beliefs which turned out to be false, deceptive, poorly understood, and even [[mutually exclusive]]. For example, many thousands of Germans died during World War II based on the belief that they were the "master race" and were justified in conquering other nations for "living space". Also during World War II, many Japanese civilians committed suicide rather than being captured by the Americans because of the false belief they would be mistreated. At [[Jonestown]], over 900 people committed mass suicide while under the influence of the cult leader [[Jim Jones]]. In 1993, 76 people died at the [[Branch Davidian]] compound in Waco Texas because they believed their leader, [[David Koresh]] was a prophet of god. In 1997, 39 members of [[Heaven's Gate]] committed suicide in the belief that a UFO following the comet Hale-Bopp would transport them to "Their World". This argument would imply that Heaven's Gate is [[Broken compass argument|just as true]] as Christianity.
===People do die for a lie===
The [[premise]] that people would never "die for a lie" is demonstrably false. People throughout history have, in fact, died for beliefs which turned out to be false, deceptive, poorly understood, and even [[mutually exclusive]]. For example, many thousands of Germans died during World War II based on the belief that they were the "master race" and were justified in conquering other nations for "living space". Also during World War II, many Japanese civilians committed suicide rather than being captured by the Americans because of the false belief they would be mistreated. At [[Jonestown]], over 900 people committed mass suicide while under the influence of the cult leader [[Jim Jones]]. In 1993, 76 people died at the [[Branch Davidian]] compound in Waco Texas because they believed their leader, [[David Koresh]] was a prophet of god. In 1997, 39 members of [[Heaven's Gate]] committed suicide in the belief that a UFO following the comet Hale-Bopp would transport them to "Their World". This argument would imply that Heaven's Gate is [[Broken compass argument|just as true]] as Christianity.


* The [[Apostles]] may well have had first hand knowledge but that doesn't lend any credibility to the claim because we don't have first hand knowledge about them or of their claims. Any number of people can have first hand knowledge of Spiderman as stated in his comics, but we still don't believe in Spiderman's authenticity. Another example would be about everyday people who have personally witnessed a seemingly paranormal phenomenon, and genuinely believe that what they saw was a supernatural element, only for them to discover after a meticulous analysis that what they witnessed was actually a regular incident with a logical and natural explanation (Will-O-Wisps were thought to be ghostly apparitions before being identified as the manifestation of chemical reactions).
===Based on unreliable accounts===
The [[Apostles]] may well have had first hand knowledge but that doesn't lend any credibility to the claim because we don't have first hand knowledge about them or of their claims. We also have only vague accounts of the death of the apostles, which are generally known by "tradition" rather than primary sources.  


* [[Implicit]] in this argument is the idea that the [[miracles of Jesus]] therefore actually happened, which is not supported by the [[premise]] that his apostles would not have died for a lie. This [[conclusion]] ignores several other possibilities:
Many people who have personally witnessed a seemingly paranormal phenomenon, and genuinely believe that what they saw was a supernatural element, only for them to discover after a meticulous analysis that what they witnessed was actually a regular incident with a logical and natural explanation (Will-O-Wisps were thought to be ghostly apparitions before being identified as the manifestation of chemical reactions).
*# The apostles strongly believed the stories to be true, but were mistaken:
*#* The ones who were killed never actually [[witness]]ed the events take place themselves, but were told by other apostles, whom they trusted.
*#* They convinced themselves the stories were true, to the point of actually believing they were, even though what they witnessed directly contradicted them.<!-- ? -->
*#* They remembered the details of the events differently than they witnessed, because the false details were constantly reinforced by everyone they kept company with.
*#* They were fooled. They really did see the events, but what they saw was a [[magic|trick]].
*# The apostles did not believe all of the stories, but died for another reason:
*#* They believed the literal truth of {{Bible|John 3:16}}, and thought they would not die.
*#* They considered the cause to be just, even though they knew some of the stories were embellished or exaggerated.
*#* They were protecting the lives of other people.
*#* They would have chosen death rather than be exposed as shameless liars.
*#* They were killed because they were public figureheads for the cause, not due to the specific stories they maintained or denied.
*#* They were killed without being given opportunity to retract their stories.
*#* They stuck to their story to maintain some dignity in their death, as they were going to be killed either way.
*#* They intended to become martyrs.
*# The apostles admitted the stories were not true, but the admission was never made public.
*# They did die protecting the truth, but the stories of those events were later embellished. The "miracles" we now read about are not what they actually saw and died for.
*# The stories of the apostles' deaths were themselves later embellished to present them as martyrs.
*# The apostles as well as Jesus died for something else, perhaps they hoped they would help free Israel from the Romans.
*# The apostles were never killed.
*# The existence of the apostles was also an invention.


* Assuming the bible is true, Jesus didn't die, he was found alive some days after his crucifixion.<ref>Achtemeier, Paul J. "Introducing the New Testament." Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eardmans Publishing Company. 2001.</ref>
===Assumption of Biblical accuracy===
[[Implicit]] in this argument is the idea that the [[miracles of Jesus]] therefore actually happened, which is not supported by the [[premise]] that his apostles would not have died for a lie. This [[conclusion]] ignores several other possibilities:
# The apostles strongly believed the stories to be true, but were mistaken:
#* The ones who were killed never actually [[witness]]ed the events take place themselves, but were told by other apostles, whom they trusted.
#* They convinced themselves the stories were true, to the point of actually believing they were, even though what they witnessed directly contradicted them.<!-- ? -->
#* They remembered the details of the events differently than they witnessed, because the false details were constantly reinforced by everyone they kept company with.
#* They were fooled. They really did see the events, but what they saw was a [[magic|trick]].
# The apostles did not believe all of the stories, but died for another reason:
#* They believed the literal truth of {{Bible|John 3:16}}, and thought they would not die.
#* They considered the cause to be just, even though they knew some of the stories were embellished or exaggerated.
#* They were protecting the lives of other people.
#* They would have chosen death rather than be exposed as shameless liars.
#* They were killed because they were public figureheads for the cause, not due to the specific stories they maintained or denied.
#* They were killed without being given opportunity to retract their stories.
#* They stuck to their story to maintain some dignity in their death, as they were going to be killed either way.
#* They intended to become martyrs.
# The apostles admitted the stories were not true, but the admission was never made public.
# They did die protecting the truth, but the stories of those events were later embellished. The "miracles" we now read about are not what they actually saw and died for.
# The stories of the apostles' deaths were themselves later embellished to present them as martyrs.
# The apostles as well as Jesus died for something else, perhaps they hoped they would help free Israel from the Romans.
# The apostles were never killed.
# The existence of the apostles was also an invention.


*This is contrary to the account in the Bible. According to the Bible Jesus did die and was resurrected, ergo creating a difference between resuscitation and resurrection. The gospels say that Jesus died on the cross as a result of crucifixion, if that doesn't prove his death, being in a sealed tomb for three days does. Furthermore, according to gospel accounts and other accounts, upon Jesus' resurrection it is said that he had wounds but wasn't in a state of looking ill (as would be the result of crucifixion and being in a tomb for three days). Thus Jesus had to die and resurrect, not just resuscitate, assuming the accounts are correct. The Gospels were all written at least a generation after the events stated there allegedly took place so we cannot be sure that the Gospel account is accurate.
===Jesus didn't die===
Assuming the bible is true, Jesus didn't die, he was found alive some days after his crucifixion.<ref>Achtemeier, Paul J. "Introducing the New Testament." Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eardmans Publishing Company. 2001.</ref>


* Assuming the gospels are true, Jesus was executed as a criminal. The crimes described in the gospels consist of vandalism ({{Bible|Mark 11:15}}), theft ({{Bible|Mark 11:15}}, {{Bible|Matthew 21:12}}, {{Bible|John 2:15}}), battery with a weapon ({{Bible|John 2:15}}), impeding traffic ({{Bible|Mark 11:16}}) and making terrorist threats ({{Bible|John 2:19}}), as well as assault, disturbing the peace and impeding commerce. Most of these were capital crimes, and he was accordingly arrested, prosecuted and sentenced to death. It is often believed that Jesus knew his actions would result in his death, so that despite his execution being legally justified it has no bearing on whether is was martyrdom. However, if he died for his beliefs, then those beliefs for which he died consist of not changing money or selling animals inside of the Temple. In addition, he was not killed for his beliefs, or as a threat to Jewish authority, but for his direct actions ({{Bible|Mark 11:18}}).
This is contrary to the account in the Bible. According to the Bible Jesus did die and was resurrected, ergo creating a difference between resuscitation and resurrection. The gospels say that Jesus died on the cross as a result of crucifixion, if that doesn't prove his death, being in a sealed tomb for three days does. Furthermore, according to gospel accounts and other accounts, upon Jesus' resurrection it is said that he had wounds but wasn't in a state of looking ill (as would be the result of crucifixion and being in a tomb for three days). Thus Jesus had to die and resurrect, not just resuscitate, assuming the accounts are correct. The Gospels were all written at least a generation after the events stated there allegedly took place so we cannot be sure that the Gospel account is accurate.
 
===Jesus was executed but not for his core beliefs===
Assuming the gospels are true, Jesus was executed as a criminal. The crimes described in the gospels consist of vandalism ({{Bible|Mark 11:15}}), theft ({{Bible|Mark 11:15}}, {{Bible|Matthew 21:12}}, {{Bible|John 2:15}}), battery with a weapon ({{Bible|John 2:15}}), impeding traffic ({{Bible|Mark 11:16}}) and making terrorist threats ({{Bible|John 2:19}}), as well as assault, disturbing the peace and impeding commerce. Most of these were capital crimes, and he was accordingly arrested, prosecuted and sentenced to death. It is often believed that Jesus knew his actions would result in his death, so that despite his execution being legally justified it has no bearing on whether is was martyrdom. However, if he died for his beliefs, then those beliefs for which he died consist of not changing money or selling animals inside of the Temple. In addition, he was not killed for his beliefs, or as a threat to Jewish authority, but for his direct actions ({{Bible|Mark 11:18}}).


==References==
==References==

Revision as of 21:09, 13 August 2015

An often used modern argument for the truth of the resurrection of Jesus is that of martyrdom. The claim is that all of the apostles would have had first-hand knowledge as to whether or not Jesus actually returned from the dead and confirmed that he was the Son of God. As they died rather than admit the account was false, this suggests that rather than just believe that it was true like other martyrs in other faiths, they knew it was true for a fact.

"People do not willingly allow themselves to die for something they know is a lie so the Apostles really believed they saw, talked with, touched, walked with and even ate with Jesus in various group settings after He died on the cross which convinced them He was God so they became bold proclaimers when before they were doubters. [1]"

Counter-apologetics

People do die for a lie

The premise that people would never "die for a lie" is demonstrably false. People throughout history have, in fact, died for beliefs which turned out to be false, deceptive, poorly understood, and even mutually exclusive. For example, many thousands of Germans died during World War II based on the belief that they were the "master race" and were justified in conquering other nations for "living space". Also during World War II, many Japanese civilians committed suicide rather than being captured by the Americans because of the false belief they would be mistreated. At Jonestown, over 900 people committed mass suicide while under the influence of the cult leader Jim Jones. In 1993, 76 people died at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco Texas because they believed their leader, David Koresh was a prophet of god. In 1997, 39 members of Heaven's Gate committed suicide in the belief that a UFO following the comet Hale-Bopp would transport them to "Their World". This argument would imply that Heaven's Gate is just as true as Christianity.

Based on unreliable accounts

The Apostles may well have had first hand knowledge but that doesn't lend any credibility to the claim because we don't have first hand knowledge about them or of their claims. We also have only vague accounts of the death of the apostles, which are generally known by "tradition" rather than primary sources.

Many people who have personally witnessed a seemingly paranormal phenomenon, and genuinely believe that what they saw was a supernatural element, only for them to discover after a meticulous analysis that what they witnessed was actually a regular incident with a logical and natural explanation (Will-O-Wisps were thought to be ghostly apparitions before being identified as the manifestation of chemical reactions).

Assumption of Biblical accuracy

Implicit in this argument is the idea that the miracles of Jesus therefore actually happened, which is not supported by the premise that his apostles would not have died for a lie. This conclusion ignores several other possibilities:

  1. The apostles strongly believed the stories to be true, but were mistaken:
    • The ones who were killed never actually witnessed the events take place themselves, but were told by other apostles, whom they trusted.
    • They convinced themselves the stories were true, to the point of actually believing they were, even though what they witnessed directly contradicted them.
    • They remembered the details of the events differently than they witnessed, because the false details were constantly reinforced by everyone they kept company with.
    • They were fooled. They really did see the events, but what they saw was a trick.
  2. The apostles did not believe all of the stories, but died for another reason:
    • They believed the literal truth of John 3:16 Bible-icon.png, and thought they would not die.
    • They considered the cause to be just, even though they knew some of the stories were embellished or exaggerated.
    • They were protecting the lives of other people.
    • They would have chosen death rather than be exposed as shameless liars.
    • They were killed because they were public figureheads for the cause, not due to the specific stories they maintained or denied.
    • They were killed without being given opportunity to retract their stories.
    • They stuck to their story to maintain some dignity in their death, as they were going to be killed either way.
    • They intended to become martyrs.
  3. The apostles admitted the stories were not true, but the admission was never made public.
  4. They did die protecting the truth, but the stories of those events were later embellished. The "miracles" we now read about are not what they actually saw and died for.
  5. The stories of the apostles' deaths were themselves later embellished to present them as martyrs.
  6. The apostles as well as Jesus died for something else, perhaps they hoped they would help free Israel from the Romans.
  7. The apostles were never killed.
  8. The existence of the apostles was also an invention.

Jesus didn't die

Assuming the bible is true, Jesus didn't die, he was found alive some days after his crucifixion.[2]

This is contrary to the account in the Bible. According to the Bible Jesus did die and was resurrected, ergo creating a difference between resuscitation and resurrection. The gospels say that Jesus died on the cross as a result of crucifixion, if that doesn't prove his death, being in a sealed tomb for three days does. Furthermore, according to gospel accounts and other accounts, upon Jesus' resurrection it is said that he had wounds but wasn't in a state of looking ill (as would be the result of crucifixion and being in a tomb for three days). Thus Jesus had to die and resurrect, not just resuscitate, assuming the accounts are correct. The Gospels were all written at least a generation after the events stated there allegedly took place so we cannot be sure that the Gospel account is accurate.

Jesus was executed but not for his core beliefs

Assuming the gospels are true, Jesus was executed as a criminal. The crimes described in the gospels consist of vandalism (Mark 11:15 Bible-icon.png), theft (Mark 11:15 Bible-icon.png, Matthew 21:12 Bible-icon.png, John 2:15 Bible-icon.png), battery with a weapon (John 2:15 Bible-icon.png), impeding traffic (Mark 11:16 Bible-icon.png) and making terrorist threats (John 2:19 Bible-icon.png), as well as assault, disturbing the peace and impeding commerce. Most of these were capital crimes, and he was accordingly arrested, prosecuted and sentenced to death. It is often believed that Jesus knew his actions would result in his death, so that despite his execution being legally justified it has no bearing on whether is was martyrdom. However, if he died for his beliefs, then those beliefs for which he died consist of not changing money or selling animals inside of the Temple. In addition, he was not killed for his beliefs, or as a threat to Jewish authority, but for his direct actions (Mark 11:18 Bible-icon.png).

References

  1. [1]
  2. Achtemeier, Paul J. "Introducing the New Testament." Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eardmans Publishing Company. 2001.

External links


v · d Arguments for the existence of god
Anthropic arguments   Anthropic principle · Natural-law argument
Arguments for belief   Pascal's Wager · Argument from faith · Just hit your knees
Christological arguments   Argument from scriptural miracles · Would someone die for a lie? · Liar, Lunatic or Lord
Cosmological arguments   Argument from aesthetic experience · Argument from contingency · Cosmological argument · Fine-tuning argument · Kalam · Leibniz cosmological argument · Principle of sufficient reason · Unmoved mover · Why is there something rather than nothing?
Majority arguments   Argument from admired religious scientists
Moral arguments   Argument from justice · Divine command theory
Ontological argument   Argument from degree · Argument from desire · Origin of the idea of God
Dogmatic arguments   Argument from divine sense · Argument from uniqueness
Teleological arguments   Argument from design · Banana argument · 747 Junkyard argument · Laminin argument · Argument from natural disasters
Testimonial arguments   Argument from observed miracles · Personal experience · Argument from consciousness · Emotional pleas · Efficacy of prayer
Transcendental arguments   God created numbers · Argument from the meaning of life
Scriptural arguments   Scriptural inerrancy · Scriptural scientific foreknowledge · Scriptural codes